Purgatory isn't Biblical, just as Catholicism and it's holidays are not Biblical, just as their paganistic rituals at their "Christ Mass" is not Biblical. I saw children placing flowers in front of an idol of the baby Jesus (like anyone knows what he looked like). Looks pagan to me, and since I am a former pagan, I believe that I know what I am talking about. Activities like that are pure idolatry and break the commandment that says to not bow down or to worship any idols.
I find it difficult to believe that you threw the truth away for such iniquity. I pray that your thoughts will change, and your heart as well.
Peace,
Cbuser
I'm not clear why I should abandon my thoughts concerning Catholicism and its holidays. Is it a "pagan ritual" to place flowers around a statue of the newborn Jesus?
If so, what about placing flowers at the gravestone of a deceased loved one? Is that worshiping the dead? Or is the intent not to honor the person who is represented by the gravestone?
Is it okay to carry around a picture of your spouse, and even kiss it when you think of her during a business trip?
Is it okay to have a gigantic statue of Abraham Lincoln in Washington D.C., and to visit it to honor his place in history?
Can we salute the American flag and "pledge allegience" to it?
Anyone who actually worships a statue or representation of any kind -- even of Jesus -- is breaking the First Commandment, which forbids idolatry or the worship of any thing or any person other than the one, true Creator God. To do so is patently contrary to Catholic teaching. Should I change my mind about the First Commandment?
"Cbuser" alleges to be a former pagan. I'd like to know what kind of paganism celebrates the virgin birth of Jesus Christ, the Son of God who became flesh. Is this the official doctrine of "pagans"? Or is Cbuser looking at surface-level similarities between pagan practices and Christian ones?
There are pagans who practice a form of meditation. So do Christians. Is Christian meditation therefore "pagan"? If there is a pagan rite that involves the use of water, does that make Christian baptism "pagan"? If there are Eastern religions that have a "holy book," does that mean the notion of Sacred Scripture is "pagan"? All this gets to be pretty silly, looking for superficial similarities in order to brand Christian practices with the "pagan" label.
If we insist on looking at the superficial, why not look at the other details? The Bible speaks of a Baby named Jesus, born of a virgin. Others visited Him and brought Him gifts. The angels in heaven rejoiced in song. Many other such words and details are associated with the observance of Christmas. According to Cbuser's logic, why don't these things make Christmas "biblical"?
It all boils down to this: When judging a practice, one must look at its heart, not its skin. A certain color of lipstick may be worn by both a chaste woman and a filthy prostitute, but the two women are fundamentally different. Their lip color means little. The two women are not cut from the same cloth.
When you strip away the seasonal decorations, and especially the commercialism that has invaded it, Christmas is a holy day that celebrates the Coming of Christ. That is the heart of it. And there is no scripture that condemns the celebration of Jesus' birth; the Bible only shows it to be worthy of celebration (Luke 1-2). If Sacred Scripture condemned the celebration of Jesus' birth, then the Catholic Church would condemn it as well.
PS: I do know what the baby Jesus looked like: a very tiny, adorable Jewish person.
7 comments:
Ignorance of another religion is inversely related to a willingness to condemn it.
My wife is catholic. I followed her to mass regularly for almost 30 years. We now attend Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church.
I love my new church home but so many people here criticize Catholicism freely, often calling it unbiblical. Most believe that Catholics never rely on scripture but only their priest. “Not based on scripture” and “trying to earn their way to heaven” are common assumptions.
Pastor Rick tells us that it’s not about a particular church or a given religion, but about a personal relationship with Christ as your savior. Still, self-righteousness abounds in the congregation.
No catholic I know worships a piece of wood. That’s just silly.
For those that don’t know, the normal mass includes readings of scripture followed by a sermon followed by communion and usually includes musical worship. Sound familiar? Granted the difference is in the details. But I have known many Catholics who have a personal relationship with Jesus, and feel lead to worship him through their catholic tradition. Are they not saved? Or must they DO something “the right way” to EARN their salvation? And if they are saved, what’s the criticism again??
Can Catholicism get in the way of salvation? Yes, as can legalism of any denomination.
I am so grateful to all the wonderful Jesus loving Catholics I have met along my walk. I have learned what faith and devotion and, yes, tolerance, look like from you.
I meant to say: "Ignorance of another religion is DIRECTLY related to a willingness to condemn it." sw
Thank you, Steve Wilson, for your comment.
Of course, I'm sorry you and your wife have disassociated with the Catholic Church. My hope is that you come back.
That said, I don't question your sincerity and love for the Lord.
Like everyone else, I've heard all the fuss over Rick Warren's books. I'll need to get a copy of "The Purpose-Driven Life" and see what it's all about.
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts. God bless.
This is Cbuser, and I am female. I formerly practiced Wicca, and was Eclectic in my practices.
The similarities between Catholicism and Paganism, is that your faith has an altar where the communion is blessed and the priest kisses this altar and chants. Humm...sounds like a ritual.
Anyhow, I do not lay flowers at a gravesite, because the loved one would not know that I was there..because they are asleep. Furthermore, I do not worship any representations of the Lord, or God, which includes a crucifix. I actually believe that a crucifix is a macabre symbol of martyrdom in the first place.
I believe that Catholism most definitely participates in idolatry. Kissing someone's picture is not idolatry. I don't recite "Our Father" or "Hail Mary" to it. When you recite those things in front of a statue of Jesus or Mary, that indeed is a form of worship.
This is just my opinion.
Tell me, though...are the mainstream holidays more enjoyable than the Lord's Feasts? I tend to think that the Lord's Feasts are much better...I don't have to go broke every December, for one, and Jesus celebrated the same holy days. I feel closer to the Lord in this way, a lot more than I ever did in the mainstream.
Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, and I was just stunned that you left the church in which you were raised. You have such great parents, Darren, they are two of the most wonderful people that I have ever known.
Agape,
Cbuser
Hi cbuser,
I'm sorry -- I didn't know previously that you are female.
The similarities between Catholicism and Paganism, is that your faith has an altar where the communion is blessed and the priest kisses this altar and chants. Humm...sounds like a ritual.
Yeah. "Ritual" is not a bad word. The Old Testament priests were deeply entrenched in ritual, as well. They used altars. Go to any Jewish synagogue and you'll hear lots of chants. What's wrong with that?
Furthermore, I do not worship any representations of the Lord, or God, which includes a crucifix. I actually believe that a crucifix is a macabre symbol of martyrdom in the first place.
Neither do I worship any representations of the Lord. The cross is seen by one set of eyes as something macabre, but to another it is the saving power of God (cf. 1 Cor. 1:18). It is a symbol -- a transformed symbol -- of the greatest love of all.
Paul wasn't against using the symbolism/imagery of the cross. He said, "May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Gal. 6:14). He spoke of others "as enemies of the cross of Christ" (Phil. 3:18). He said, "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified" (1 Cor. 2:2).
He used this kind of language because the cross is a central part of the gospel. So whether you refer to the cross in verbal symbols (words) or physical symbols (wooden crosses or crucifixes), you're doing the same thing: bringing to mind what Jesus did for us.
Moses had all sorts of physical symbols: snake-on-a-pole (which healed those who looked upon it); the ark of the covenant, which housed manna, the stone tablets of the 10 Commandments, and Aaron's rod; the holy of holies; all sorts of things. The Israelites even killed sweet little lambs that symbolized their forgiveness and foreshadowed Christ. These things seem much more "extreme" than two pieces of wood tied together in the shape of a cross. Lambs actually bled all over!
You use unleavened bread as a symbol of Jesus, eating it at the Lord's Supper as a symbol of his flesh. Symbolizing eating someone's flesh -- is that macabre?
I believe that Catholism most definitely participates in idolatry. Kissing someone's picture is not idolatry. I don't recite "Our Father" or "Hail Mary" to it. When you recite those things in front of a statue of Jesus or Mary, that indeed is a form of worship.
Praying in the presence of an artistic representation of Jesus is not worshiping the representation. It's no different than praying on your knees in front of the Bible, or clutching the Bible to your chest in prayer. I've always frequently prayed outside while looking up into the sky, but that doesn't mean I worship the sun, moon, and stars; but they make me think of the awesome Creator. No matter where you look in prayer, you're not looking "at" God (unless it's a consecrated Host). So what's wrong with praying while looking at something "religious," something that lifts one's mind and heart toward God (which is a good definition of prayer)?
Tell me, though...are the mainstream holidays more enjoyable than the Lord's Feasts? I tend to think that the Lord's Feasts are much better...I don't have to go broke every December, for one, and Jesus celebrated the same holy days. I feel closer to the Lord in this way, a lot more than I ever did in the mainstream.
It's hard to beat the Feast of Tabernacles for having a great time. But I do believe that seasons such as Christmas and ESPECIALLY Easter are more deeply moving, spiritually profound, and encouraging. It's hard not to be affected this way, because the liturgy is so focused, so concentrated. There are not the distractions that often accompany the "feast days" (go-carts, steak dinners, tourist attractions, beach parties, excessive concern about crumbs and leavening, "proving wrong" other "so-called Christians" who don't keep these days, etc.).
That's not to say Christmas doesn't have distractions associated with it in the secular world. No doubt about it. But I choose not to be distracted with those things. It's better to have "straight Jesus" than to water it down with Wal-Mart traditions. You might be interested in a post I wrote about "What I Don't Like About 'Christmas.'" Do a Technorati search on my blog for "Christmas" and you'll find it.
If you cut away the excess junk and distractions when keeping the "Feast," you can also have a spiritual experience. But when you do the same with, say, Easter, I feel there is much more remaining.
I could go on and on in more detail (if you'd like) about the spiritual benefits of "mainstream" holy days as compared to the days you're observing. Let me know if you want to discuss it further.
Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, and I was just stunned that you left the church in which you were raised. You have such great parents, Darren, they are two of the most wonderful people that I have ever known.
I am stunned, too, about leaving the Armstrong movement in which I was raised. I never would've dreamed it. And I truly learned sooooo many good lessons from WCG and CGI (and my parents) that I will never let go of. But when you're faced with certain issues, sometimes you have to make bold decisions. You did the same when you left Wicca to accept Christianity. You may never have thought that would happen, but . . . it did. And you're better off for it, because you made a great step in the right direction.
Yes, my parents are exceptional. I have nothing bad to say about them, even if I do strongly disagree with the theology they accept. I've actually (thankfully) inherited a form of "Lloyd Cary tenacity," although not in the exact same direction.
It's actually stunning how good of parents they've been and continue to be. I feel I don't measure up in that capacity. Not even close.
--Darren
Hi Darren:
You are forgiven for mistaking my gender! LOL :)
Yeah. "Ritual" is not a bad word. The Old Testament priests were deeply entrenched in ritual, as well. They used altars. Go to any Jewish synagogue and you'll hear lots of chants. What's wrong with that?
I figured out some time ago, that the Catholic priesthood mimics the Ancient Levite Priesthood in the OT. For instance, the Levite Priesthood would offer the sin and burnt offerings for the people--Catholic priests will listen to a confession, as a mediator between the person and God. The confessor goes to the priest to ask for forgiveness, much like the positiion of the Israelite sinner with the Levite priest.
Second, another similarity, is that in Judaism, there is a barmizvah (I probably spelled that incorrectly), a coming of age for a young male youth, and I believe that there is some other traditional ceremony for a young girl as well. With Catholicism, there is a confirmation ceremony for young girls and boys.
Also, the ceremonial aspects between the two priesthoods have many similarities. There was incense burned, an altar setup, etc. But the thing is, since Christ's sacrifice, there is no need for the pomp and circumstance, so to speak. Christ died once and for all, which elimiated the necessity for burnt sacrifices and sin offerings. You know this, of course.
Anyhow, I just do not think that even confessions in a closed booth are necessary. It's great to talk to your minister, but why do it in a closed booth? Why not walk along side the minister/priest and ask for advice or counsel? There is no need to ask for forgiveness through confession. A person does that on their own..I do..LOL.
If you cut away the excess junk and distractions when keeping the "Feast," you can also have a spiritual experience. But when you do the same with, say, Easter, I feel there is much more remaining.
I could go on and on in more detail (if you'd like) about the spiritual benefits of "mainstream" holy days as compared to the days you're observing. Let me know if you want to discuss it further.
I observed those holidays for many years, and I never thought they had any meaning in the first place. I was one of those people who just enjoyed the presents and stuff and assumed since everyone else did it, then it was the thing to do. You can imagine when I had the shock of my life and discovered that I had been participating in pagan oriented holidays all of my life (I was 19, at the time, and my brother told me these things. I then looked up the origins). I am now 35, and have been baptized since April 2003.
Before my conversion, I attended a myriad of churches, and even attended a couple of Catholic Masses. In particular, I did not learn anything from the Catholic Mass. It was a few songs, a lot of kneeling and crossing myself and some repetitive words. Then, the priest would recite a few Bible passages, and then there was more kneeling, praying and crossing myself and then the Mass was over. Most everyone around me knew these chants or whatever, so it gave me the impression that they repeated these same words at every service. Words lose their importance with constant repeition. Like the Eucharist, for example. That's almost every Mass, isn't it? If I were Catholic, I would be absolutely bored over time.
I truly love the Holy Days, and look forward to each and every one. It is a totally spiritual experience for me. It's especially comforting to know that Christ observed the exact same Holy Days every year of His life. There is no comparison of the Lord's Feasts to the man-made holidays. The Lord's Feasts are the most holy and are separate from the world entirely. They are reminders of what we hope for and of the future Kingdom of God. Can you say as much of yours?
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but Catholicism, and the mainstream, are just not my cup of tea, nor will they ever be. Just look at your church history, and how many people have been killed in the name of Catholicism. Look at the Crusades, the Inquisitiions, the priests and their sexual disfunctions. I think that if your church had allowed priests to marry, there wouldn't have been all of this sexual impropriety and abuse. It is not Biblical at all to prevent a person from marrying, which is what your church requires of its priests and nuns.
Oh, and one more thing: we are not supposed to call anyone "Father" except for our Father in Heaven. Why do you call a priest Father?
Your dad has always spoken fondly of you, and it's been neat getting to know you a bit. If you're anything like your dad, no doubt we'll be friends in the long run!
Agape,
Cbuser
Cbuser,
Please read my reply at:
http://darrencary.blogspot.com/2005/03/answers-to-ex-pagan-critic-of-church.html
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